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	<title>Comments on: The Well-Funded &quot;Well-Funded Denial Machine&quot; Denial Machine</title>
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	<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html</link>
	<description>Challenging Climate Orthodoxy</description>
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		<title>By: George Carty</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-185</link>
		<dc:creator>George Carty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-185</guid>
		<description>Another point - why does anyone buy the idea that someone who believed that AGW threatened to wreck the planet would deny it for mere money?

(This point was made on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://freedomforfission.blogspot.com/2006/10/climate-change-and-ad-hominems.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Freedom for Fission&lt;/a&gt; blog.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another point &#8211; why does anyone buy the idea that someone who believed that AGW threatened to wreck the planet would deny it for mere money?</p>
<p>(This point was made on the <a href="http://freedomforfission.blogspot.com/2006/10/climate-change-and-ad-hominems.html" rel="nofollow">Freedom for Fission</a> blog.)</p>
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		<title>By: The Deniers&#8217; &#8220;multi-million-dollar funding machine&#8221; &#171; AGW Doubter</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-184</link>
		<dc:creator>The Deniers&#8217; &#8220;multi-million-dollar funding machine&#8221; &#171; AGW Doubter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 00:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-184</guid>
		<description>[...] to this site, Greenpeace, in the same time span that Exxon doled out it&#8217;s 23 million, pulled in around 2 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to this site, Greenpeace, in the same time span that Exxon doled out it&#8217;s 23 million, pulled in around 2 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Denier&#8217;s multi-million dollar funding machine &#171; littleblackduck</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-183</link>
		<dc:creator>The Denier&#8217;s multi-million dollar funding machine &#171; littleblackduck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-183</guid>
		<description>[...] to this site, Greenpeace, in the same time span that Exxon doled out it&#8217;s 23 million, pulled in around 2 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to this site, Greenpeace, in the same time span that Exxon doled out it&#8217;s 23 million, pulled in around 2 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LangEugene</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-181</link>
		<dc:creator>LangEugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-181</guid>
		<description>Very interesting analysis. I must concur that something seems amiss. In my experience, the one with solid scientific facts has to be very extensively outfunded and outmaneuvered (both politically and in PR) to lose the arguments. That assumes, of course, that a political &quot;solution&quot; is not forced through before scientific fact can be considered. There is already much complex and conflicting scientific information available, but note that there is great desire by politicos and &quot;enviro-warriors&quot; to solve the problem &quot;now&quot;! Which suggests...?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also, the video clip of David Cameron ilustrates disinformative slight-of-hand. Big surprise. Perhaps he does admit it elsewhere, but although there was the usual mantra of how people will feel empowered, will save money and so on by distributed electricity production, the fact remains that it&#039;s quite expensive to implement -- especially when retrofiting existing structures. We won&#039;t even consider discussing what you do when the sun is not shining or wind not blowing... He makes a further assertion that many office towers in NYC were not touched at all in the August 2003 blackout. Not so! US environmental regulations (mostly air pollution restrictions) generally make it difficult and complicated to install ones own generation capacity. (Not to mention permit requirements by state and local agencies.) Thus, the only such electricity normally produced in American office towers is of the &quot;emergency&quot; variety. That&#039;s usually only enough to run one (1) elevator per bank, very limited lighting, true life safety systems, and little more. The age of many such buildings is also a significant complication, bringing us back to the challenge (and high expense) of retrofitting new systems into existing structures,... and big generators take a lot of space, maintenance, fuel, permitting, exhaust and air intake provisions, isolation for vibration, and substantial recordkeeping. Sure, I&#039;m thinking diesel or natural gas generation, but the eco-alternatives call for some kind of storage (batteries) for when the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine. I find it hard to imagine where the necessary photovoltaic panels would be placed on a 60-story office building full of computers, HVAC systems, etc., in Lower Manhattan, that would get the sunlight needed on even the best days, for enough of the day, to run the building. I&#039;m not sure we&#039;re there, yet. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for homeowners, well, I rather doubt most can afford to retrofit with home solar and/or wind systems (assuming they would work in any given part of the country), and I&#039;d much rather NOT pay the government or my regular utility to administer a program through which I effectively borrow the money to install such a system. Talk about lose-lose deals...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting analysis. I must concur that something seems amiss. In my experience, the one with solid scientific facts has to be very extensively outfunded and outmaneuvered (both politically and in PR) to lose the arguments. That assumes, of course, that a political &#8220;solution&#8221; is not forced through before scientific fact can be considered. There is already much complex and conflicting scientific information available, but note that there is great desire by politicos and &#8220;enviro-warriors&#8221; to solve the problem &#8220;now&#8221;! Which suggests&#8230;?</p>
<p>Also, the video clip of David Cameron ilustrates disinformative slight-of-hand. Big surprise. Perhaps he does admit it elsewhere, but although there was the usual mantra of how people will feel empowered, will save money and so on by distributed electricity production, the fact remains that it&#8217;s quite expensive to implement &#8212; especially when retrofiting existing structures. We won&#8217;t even consider discussing what you do when the sun is not shining or wind not blowing&#8230; He makes a further assertion that many office towers in NYC were not touched at all in the August 2003 blackout. Not so! US environmental regulations (mostly air pollution restrictions) generally make it difficult and complicated to install ones own generation capacity. (Not to mention permit requirements by state and local agencies.) Thus, the only such electricity normally produced in American office towers is of the &#8220;emergency&#8221; variety. That&#8217;s usually only enough to run one (1) elevator per bank, very limited lighting, true life safety systems, and little more. The age of many such buildings is also a significant complication, bringing us back to the challenge (and high expense) of retrofitting new systems into existing structures,&#8230; and big generators take a lot of space, maintenance, fuel, permitting, exhaust and air intake provisions, isolation for vibration, and substantial recordkeeping. Sure, I&#8217;m thinking diesel or natural gas generation, but the eco-alternatives call for some kind of storage (batteries) for when the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine. I find it hard to imagine where the necessary photovoltaic panels would be placed on a 60-story office building full of computers, HVAC systems, etc., in Lower Manhattan, that would get the sunlight needed on even the best days, for enough of the day, to run the building. I&#8217;m not sure we&#8217;re there, yet. </p>
<p>As for homeowners, well, I rather doubt most can afford to retrofit with home solar and/or wind systems (assuming they would work in any given part of the country), and I&#8217;d much rather NOT pay the government or my regular utility to administer a program through which I effectively borrow the money to install such a system. Talk about lose-lose deals&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Nicklin</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-180</link>
		<dc:creator>John Nicklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-180</guid>
		<description>But you miss the point. Green Peace is GOOD, Exxon is BAD. People who get funded to do pro-AGW are good people who do good honest work. People who get funded by &quot;Big Oil&quot; are bad and should be censured.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I expect that if we had 2,000,000,000USD, we could mount a pretty good campaign and influence lots of politicians.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;thanks for the analysis, keep up that good work. As always, I find this blog to be thought provoking and informative. Maybe I&#039;m just a BAD person. But if som where&#039;s my cheque from Exxon?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But you miss the point. Green Peace is GOOD, Exxon is BAD. People who get funded to do pro-AGW are good people who do good honest work. People who get funded by &#8220;Big Oil&#8221; are bad and should be censured.</p>
<p>I expect that if we had 2,000,000,000USD, we could mount a pretty good campaign and influence lots of politicians.</p>
<p>thanks for the analysis, keep up that good work. As always, I find this blog to be thought provoking and informative. Maybe I&#8217;m just a BAD person. But if som where&#8217;s my cheque from Exxon?</p>
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		<title>By: Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-179</link>
		<dc:creator>Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-179</guid>
		<description>Good lord.  I&#039;m new to CR but would like to congratulate you on giving me that feeling of almost being personally understood!  Keep up the good work. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Disclaimer: I don&#039;t work in the Oil industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good lord.  I&#8217;m new to CR but would like to congratulate you on giving me that feeling of almost being personally understood!  Keep up the good work. </p>
<p>Disclaimer: I don&#8217;t work in the Oil industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Wondering Aloud</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Wondering Aloud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-178</guid>
		<description>Good post here.  Especially good comment that Greenpeace is the tip of the ice berg.  I believe US taxpayers pony up $6 billion a year for &quot;climate research&quot;.  But if your research is not pro climate holocaust your funding doesn&#039;t last.  This is enough to keep about 30,000 climate scientists working on the project.  I don&#039;t believe there are 30,000 such scientists available in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post here.  Especially good comment that Greenpeace is the tip of the ice berg.  I believe US taxpayers pony up $6 billion a year for &#8220;climate research&#8221;.  But if your research is not pro climate holocaust your funding doesn&#8217;t last.  This is enough to keep about 30,000 climate scientists working on the project.  I don&#8217;t believe there are 30,000 such scientists available in the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Clarke</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-177</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-177</guid>
		<description>Greenpeace is just the tip of the money &#039;iceberg&#039;.  The real cash comes from governments around the world.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As H. L. Menken cynically noted so long ago &quot;The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Whether you believe AGW to be real or imaginary is not relevant to the issue of money.  There is no doubt that practical politics considers man-made climate change a &#039;hobgoblin&#039; in need of government attention, which is synonomus with government money.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Since research scientists and universities thrive on government grant money, they are more than willing to focus their attentions on anything the government deems important.  Governments will pay as long as AGW is viewed as a threat, and since climate change is complex, and no one knows for sure that a man-made crisis is out of the question, scientist see no harm in writing phrases that continue to feed the goose laying the golden eggs.  Afterall, if you don&#039;t imply that your work is critical to understanding man-made climate change (whether it is or is not), someone else will and take your grant money.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The net result is that there is a huge incentive in the research community to churn out work that does not openly conflict with the notion of a potential AGW crisis, even if the actual data does not support the theory.  Conclusions can always include speculations that further research (funding) would likely show support of the AGW crisis!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Greenpeace may have spread around a couple of billion dollars of influence over the last ten years, but governments spend at least twice that every year to study human induced climate change.  If the human impact was proven to be minor tomorrow, govenment research grants would drop 95% by the day after tomorrow!  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;While individual scientists will always defend the ultimate goal of science to understand the world around us, the community-at-large will not readily suffer those speaking scientific truth if it results in a gross reduction in funding!  Thus, the seemingly large support of the AGW crisis theory in the scientific community is more a product of symmantics than logical argument; scientific culture than scientific truth!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greenpeace is just the tip of the money &#8216;iceberg&#8217;.  The real cash comes from governments around the world.  </p>
<p>As H. L. Menken cynically noted so long ago &#8220;The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.&#8221;</p>
<p>Whether you believe AGW to be real or imaginary is not relevant to the issue of money.  There is no doubt that practical politics considers man-made climate change a &#8216;hobgoblin&#8217; in need of government attention, which is synonomus with government money.</p>
<p>Since research scientists and universities thrive on government grant money, they are more than willing to focus their attentions on anything the government deems important.  Governments will pay as long as AGW is viewed as a threat, and since climate change is complex, and no one knows for sure that a man-made crisis is out of the question, scientist see no harm in writing phrases that continue to feed the goose laying the golden eggs.  Afterall, if you don&#8217;t imply that your work is critical to understanding man-made climate change (whether it is or is not), someone else will and take your grant money.</p>
<p>The net result is that there is a huge incentive in the research community to churn out work that does not openly conflict with the notion of a potential AGW crisis, even if the actual data does not support the theory.  Conclusions can always include speculations that further research (funding) would likely show support of the AGW crisis!</p>
<p>Greenpeace may have spread around a couple of billion dollars of influence over the last ten years, but governments spend at least twice that every year to study human induced climate change.  If the human impact was proven to be minor tomorrow, govenment research grants would drop 95% by the day after tomorrow!  </p>
<p>While individual scientists will always defend the ultimate goal of science to understand the world around us, the community-at-large will not readily suffer those speaking scientific truth if it results in a gross reduction in funding!  Thus, the seemingly large support of the AGW crisis theory in the scientific community is more a product of symmantics than logical argument; scientific culture than scientific truth!</p>
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		<title>By: T. Greer</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-175</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Greer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-175</guid>
		<description>I always found the &quot;well funded skeptics&quot; arguement to be rather hollow myself. After all, if we are to judge scientists by who supports (or opposes) their research, then we have &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_020607_news_taylor_title.59f5d04a.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; more&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/science_politics/001127state_climatologists.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;to&lt;/a&gt;  &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003618979_warming15m.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fear&lt;/a&gt; from the Alarmists.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It seems like these impartial climatologists have an interest in the game after all. (Or else!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always found the &#8220;well funded skeptics&#8221; arguement to be rather hollow myself. After all, if we are to judge scientists by who supports (or opposes) their research, then we have <a HREF="http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_020607_news_taylor_title.59f5d04a.html" REL="nofollow"> more</a> <a HREF="http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/science_politics/001127state_climatologists.html" REL="nofollow">to</a>  <a HREF="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003618979_warming15m.html" REL="nofollow">fear</a> from the Alarmists.</p>
<p>It seems like these impartial climatologists have an interest in the game after all. (Or else!)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/01/well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine.html/comment-page-1#comment-174</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateresistance.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/the-well-funded-well-funded-denial-machine-denial-machine/#comment-174</guid>
		<description>First rate analysis thoroughly deserving of much wider circulation.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Very well done!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First rate analysis thoroughly deserving of much wider circulation.</p>
<p>Very well done!</p>
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