Comments on: Observing the Observer http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/12/observing-the-observer.html Challenging Climate Orthodoxy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:47:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Alex Cull http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/12/observing-the-observer.html#comment-990 Alex Cull Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:07:53 +0000 http://www.climate-resistance.org/?p=251#comment-990 I think the economic downturn is serving to create a mood of pragmatism, and we'll probably see a few more "green principles" go by the board during the next year. People who in times of plenty might have splashed out on a hybrid or even an electric car may find themselves settling for a second-hand petrol-burning Vauxhall or Nissan instead. Ditto with green tariffs for gas and electricity, organic food and "ethical" options of many kinds. On a world level, I think we'll probably hear national leaders still talking the talk on climate issues but see them walking the walk on economic issues instead. Re the issue of stuff running out, I think it's the case that low-hanging fruit tend to get eaten quickly. And if there's still plenty of low-hanging fruit, why go to the trouble of climbing higher? It's when the easily-reached stuff has been used up, that we face a choice. Environmentalists might say the right choice is to volunteer to eat less of the fruit, or have fewer fruit-eating children; in other words, lower our expectations. The other way, of course, is to figure out a way to climb higher into the tree, or a clever way to bring the high-hanging fruit down to ground level. This is how our resourceful monkey cousins would see the situation, anyway. And we humans are no less resourceful when the need arises, IMO. I think the economic downturn is serving to create a mood of pragmatism, and we’ll probably see a few more “green principles” go by the board during the next year. People who in times of plenty might have splashed out on a hybrid or even an electric car may find themselves settling for a second-hand petrol-burning Vauxhall or Nissan instead. Ditto with green tariffs for gas and electricity, organic food and “ethical” options of many kinds. On a world level, I think we’ll probably hear national leaders still talking the talk on climate issues but see them walking the walk on economic issues instead.

Re the issue of stuff running out, I think it’s the case that low-hanging fruit tend to get eaten quickly. And if there’s still plenty of low-hanging fruit, why go to the trouble of climbing higher? It’s when the easily-reached stuff has been used up, that we face a choice. Environmentalists might say the right choice is to volunteer to eat less of the fruit, or have fewer fruit-eating children; in other words, lower our expectations. The other way, of course, is to figure out a way to climb higher into the tree, or a clever way to bring the high-hanging fruit down to ground level.

This is how our resourceful monkey cousins would see the situation, anyway. And we humans are no less resourceful when the need arises, IMO.

]]> By: Stefan http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/12/observing-the-observer.html#comment-989 Stefan Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:48:36 +0000 http://www.climate-resistance.org/?p=251#comment-989 As you say, climate determinism is one of their problems. In a broader sense, it is their apparent inability to think holistically, which is ironic. It is their inability to think about complex systems and recognise that complex systems can't be deterministically predicted, or even projected, scenario'd, nor guessed. I mean, you can guess, but to be correct the guess has to be so vague as to be worthless for practical uses. Experts say we are going into a recession. OK, we all know that. The point is, how long and how deep? That's what matters. Experts don't know. World resources are running out. Seems logical... so why did they lose the bet regarding precious metals? They must realise that they can't predict because when their original prediction fails to come true, they still stick to the same idea; stuff will run out! The fact that it hasn't yet is besides the point, it will, eventually! Well maybe a comet will hit us before then. So what? Maybe we'll invent new technologies and new resources. As we always have done. Here is an idea: human ingenuity and widespread individual and collective efforts to develop will continue on all human scales and in all parts of the world. Scientists only provide certain kinds of information about certain things. They are not experts on humanity nor human processes nor our development. Yes they can tell us some things, but they are limited little pieces of information here and there. They do not have the whole picture, they do not think holistically. At the moment the greenies are locked in a political fight with everyone else to get us to put the environment first. I just wish we knew how to engage them in a way that spoke to their concerns without it turning into a fight against our infrastructure and economy. As you say, climate determinism is one of their problems. In a broader sense, it is their apparent inability to think holistically, which is ironic. It is their inability to think about complex systems and recognise that complex systems can’t be deterministically predicted, or even projected, scenario’d, nor guessed. I mean, you can guess, but to be correct the guess has to be so vague as to be worthless for practical uses. Experts say we are going into a recession. OK, we all know that. The point is, how long and how deep? That’s what matters. Experts don’t know.

World resources are running out. Seems logical… so why did they lose the bet regarding precious metals? They must realise that they can’t predict because when their original prediction fails to come true, they still stick to the same idea; stuff will run out! The fact that it hasn’t yet is besides the point, it will, eventually! Well maybe a comet will hit us before then. So what? Maybe we’ll invent new technologies and new resources. As we always have done.

Here is an idea: human ingenuity and widespread individual and collective efforts to develop will continue on all human scales and in all parts of the world. Scientists only provide certain kinds of information about certain things. They are not experts on humanity nor human processes nor our development. Yes they can tell us some things, but they are limited little pieces of information here and there. They do not have the whole picture, they do not think holistically.

At the moment the greenies are locked in a political fight with everyone else to get us to put the environment first. I just wish we knew how to engage them in a way that spoke to their concerns without it turning into a fight against our infrastructure and economy.

]]> By: Obnoxio The Clown http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/12/observing-the-observer.html#comment-988 Obnoxio The Clown Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:26:47 +0000 http://www.climate-resistance.org/?p=251#comment-988 Turnips of Doom: It's OK, the Prius isn't as popular as it used to be, either. Toyota's taking a break from being green too. Both stories are covered here: http://tinyurl.com/9fd88b Turnips of Doom: It’s OK, the Prius isn’t as popular as it used to be, either. Toyota’s taking a break from being green too. Both stories are covered here: http://tinyurl.com/9fd88b

]]> By: Turnips of Doom http://www.climate-resistance.org/2008/12/observing-the-observer.html#comment-987 Turnips of Doom Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:41:51 +0000 http://www.climate-resistance.org/?p=251#comment-987 The other story I woke to was that Organic farmer were asking the govt to take a break from enforcing organic standards for the duration of the recession (I presume) - this was about 730 on radio 4 although a quick google hasn't come up with much. As far as I am aware this relates mainly or just to animal feed but I am not sure what this means in terms of organic ideology? - wasn't it going to feed the world ? Is the environment more important than the economy? Is it ok to sell inorganic as organic ? Will your lunch "save the planet" less? If Organic farmers are taking a break from being eco because of the eco-nomic landscape can I carry on pissing carbon out of my car during the green revolution on the same basis? The other story I woke to was that Organic farmer were asking the govt to take a break from enforcing organic standards for the duration of the recession (I presume) – this was about 730 on radio 4 although a quick google hasn’t come up with much.

As far as I am aware this relates mainly or just to animal feed but I am not sure what this means in terms of organic ideology? – wasn’t it going to feed the world ? Is the environment more important than the economy? Is it ok to sell inorganic as organic ? Will your lunch “save the planet” less? If Organic farmers are taking a break from being eco because of the eco-nomic landscape can I carry on pissing carbon out of my car during the green revolution on the same basis?

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